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Ask HN: What industry needs technical innovation?
40 points by nategraves on Oct 20, 2009 | hide | past | favorite | 74 comments
Today, in the office, we had a brief discussion of some of the industries or fields that seem to have had relatively little technical innovation over the past decade. Some industries seem to be getting a lot of attention from technical minds these days (e.g. the power grid, alternative fuels, etc.); others seem more stagnant and some may not stand to gain a lot from technological advancements.

But, I'm curious to hear others' opinions. What industries are using technology and practices that are antiquated?



As someone who works as an IT person in the Mental Health industry I'd nominate that industry. Mental Health has all the problems of regular health care times 10.

To give the most basic example, there is no formalized charting system in the Mental Health Industry. You have standardized notes that are turned into the county but that's about it.

The industry I work in (treatment of abused children who have been removed from the home) has a 96% fail rate in California. That means 96% of the children entrusted to the state end up in jail or dead by the age of 25 (as of 2003). So if ever there was an industry that needed technology's help it's this one.


The medical industry needs (good) software that helps with diagnosis. This covers mental health also.

You have symptoms of problem and it helps narrow down. Need a massive database of all known diseases as well as symptoms / remedies. Chart location data for origin of specific disease, (less likely to be rabies if Australia etc) and probability from all factors.

Would require huge amounts of data as well as many man hours to create but a system that does this task would be one of most beneficial medical breakthrough possible right now in my eyes.

Especially in mental health where there are symptoms of many things over many separate disorder, or rare one. It would be a bonus if you could let this information to be fully public, especially if one could direct users to relevant places.


such software exist , there's one i know called isabel/isabel health or something similar.there are probably others.

from what i know there's quite a strong resistance from doctors to working with software that automates their jobs. such software usually slows the doctors (he need to type etc) do it's hurts productivity. but to really gain the monetary benefit from using such software, a cheaper , and less knowledgable healthcare provider should use the software(for example nurse doing some jobs of the family doctor like in minute clinics, or family doctor doing some jobs of the specialist). As you can imagine ,shifting jobs between providers in the healthcare industry is not an easy job:)


You also need doctors to be willing to accept the software. They may not since they may feel that it makes their job look "easy" and will therefore cut into their incomes.


Thinking that doctors could be scared that their job looks easy makes me not only excited but all more hungry for this sort of software. This is the same thing labor said as it was mechanized. All sorts of other fields that changed to be technology reliant are the same. The idea that medicine could become "easy" could change this world maybe. Medicine becoming a job for more and more spread out is exciting to me. I hope we can make physicians near obsolete and direct professionals at research to better medicine.


I work at a medical device company that does a lot of software related work. Making their work look easy is NOT an issue. The big problem is that insurance plans typically don't reimburse time spent with technology. For instance in Diabetes treatment a doc could look at your results and provide good feedback via email or phone, but there is not reimbursement code for this. So you take half a day off of work to have a 10 minute meeting with a doc.

Most docs would love more tech in their practices.


First, you need software that is actually helpful. This means that it has to assist me with creating and ranking differentials that I wouldn't otherwise have pieced together. I have yet to see any software like this.


could something like rethinkautism.com could be helpfull in your industry(treatment of abused children) ?


Housing & Home Construction

Most house construction in the industrialised world is still done by semi-skilled hand labour. There are few radical advances in materials or methods that have gained traction with the industry. Partly this is because the building industry is held back by antiquated construction codes that specify acceptable means and materials rather than the minimum performance constraints that buildings must exceed to be considered safe. But there is a lot of cultural resistance as well, both from the building trades and from customers.

Home construction is an area where several orders of magnitude improvement in both cost and performance are possible, just by the application of basic engineering principles. Well, basic engineering principles and a willingness to circumvent the established order.


May be this has to be first done in a country where it is possible (lax codes; not enforced; with corrupt officials etc - there are plenty of those) and made it a great success. May be after that the First World will catch up. You just have to make sure it doesn't get branded as Third World crap.


Alas, in construction circumventing the established order is generally known as a code violation, and frowned upon.


Presumably the fields that need innovation most are those that have some artificial constraint suppressing it. E.g. the music business, because anything good is ipso facto sued out of existence. Or the nuclear power industry, because the level of regulation becomes a barrier to entry to all but companies so bureaucratic they fit the government like a mold.

So oddly enough, you're most likely to be able to achieve innovation where other people are.


Definitely. Technical innovation threatens their long-term positions at the top of the food chain. Innovation seems to means typically come through increased competition and a general opening of the market.


Can you give an example of a young company that managed to legally sidestep that sort of regulation?


Usually the way you do it is by replacing the whole industry that's regulated.


Software development. And no, that's not a joke. We really are roughly where we were in the 70's, we have not been able to make good use of the increase in machine power.

It would be nice to see something really fresh. I'm holding out for 'fleet', or something like it. A radical departure from what we think is 'best practice' and the ways to do things. Something that will turn software development into a true engineering discipline, without the house of cards feeling that we have today.


Alan Kay with the Viewpoints Research Institute is doing some interesting work. If you have a chance, you should check out their released papers:

"STEPS Toward The Reinvention of Programming" http://www.vpri.org/pdf/tr2007008_steps.pdf

"STEPS Toward The Reinvention of Programming, 2008 Progress Report Submitted to the National Science Foundation (NSF), October 2008" http://www.vpri.org/pdf/tr2008004_steps08.pdf

The idea here is to rebuild the existing software infrastructure that goes into a fully-functioning system such that the source code is at a minimum an order of magnitude smaller than systems are today. To do so, they claim, requires building the software stack on top of the right abstractions. So far, it seems they've made some excellent progress.


sounds like lisp.


but that's a culture problem and not a technology one.

(I don't know what this 'fleet' you speak of is, however)


http://fleet.cs.berkeley.edu/docs/ivan.talk-the.fleet.archit...

You think software is not technology ?

Throwing away the structure that we have today and rethinking software from the ground up is definitely technology, not culture.


Software is only "technology" as painting once was. Much contemporary software is reminiscent of Medieval mosaics: big representations of highly conservative traditional models and crude depictions of people, built by a legion of anonymous workers, from monotonous fragile pieces. They feel like they were approached as engineering problems.

In Renaissance art, the new non-church wealthy elite still commissioned religious imagery, but they seem to've been after beauty more than direct reinforcement of their authority. This dynamic seems mirrored in the current divide between the products of startups and internal projects of enterprises.


Agriculture. I'm studying an agricultural products distributor, and as much as automation has helped reduce the reliance on labor in the agricultural sector, there are still many areas hugely reliant on inefficient labor -- and many business owners are facing increasing financial difficulty because of a resistance toward automation.

I predict that as the industry consolidates, the more tech-savvy, bigger players with more capital will squeeze the small guys out. And there is an interesting opportunity for tech-savvy people there.

I am thinking specifically about some of the ag sectors which have not already massively consolidated, such as greenhouse-based ag.


How about law? Obviously there are non-technical problems there as well, but it seems like there is still a lot that could be done technologically to improve transparency and (maybe more interestingly) reduce expense.


I'm a non-practicing lawyer in the tech space. There actually is a lot of technology in law. For example, eDiscovery is a really hot field right now. The basic problem: given a multi-terabyte corpus, which documents are legally relevant?

In the past one would gather a room full of lawyers and actually read through all of the documents (a task I did once). Now you can use a combination of linguists, lawyers, and search techniques to do the job.

(the discovery phase of a trial on average accounts for 50% of litigation expenses)


I've actually been thinking about law recently. It seems that, because it is a field that is based on rules, it would lend itself well to a more programmatic solution. Obviously not all law could be serviced programmatically, but there are certainly areas that could be.


There's already been quite a bit of work on applying technology to contract law relating to contracts (primarily, but not exclusively, financial contracts). There was a discussion about this on Lambda the Ultimate a while ago, if you're interested: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/2973


Immigration processing is one, atleast in US.

I've still not understood why it takes 4-5 years to USCIS office to grant or deny residency of an applicant. How can that process be so slow? All papers and evidences are submitted on day one. Then why it takes 4-5 years to process back-log applications and then process yours.

I know there is quota per country for per year. But not all quotas are full by all countries. Why can't they do shuffling and do dynamic quota management?

This inefficiency is frustrating to many individuals, so definitely need some technical innovation to process things efficiently.


That's because it is a deterrent.


> I've still not understood why it takes 4-5 years to USCIS office to grant or deny residency of an applicant.

What makes you think that the delay has anything to do with the actual processing of the application?


Business Accounting

The current quarterly system of reporting finances was (I believe) developed as a result of the Great Depression, to help inform the public of company status.

The recent banking meltdown shows how inadequate this system is.

Something more realtime is needed.


I think that's an interesting idea. I know that quarterly filings are an SEC requirement, but it's at least in part to help shareholders keep abreast of the goings on of the company in which they are part owners. It seems like completely realtime would overwhelm casual investors, but could provide for much more accurate trade decisions than those made on speculation and the current system of quarterly conference calls.


Yes.

Another problem with the quarterly focus is that companies end up gaming the system (not in an entirely malicious way) in order to make the quarterly and annual results look good, almost like cramming for a final. It can detract from focusing on healthy long term growth.


Real estate is one that really chaps my ass.

I don't know what it's like in other countries, but in Canada there's this bizarre mafia of middlemen that take ~6-10% of the value of house when you sell. They self-promote and self-reinforce to maintain an information advantage, but they don't seem to offer a service beyond a list of houses with pictures, and hand-holding.


Education


Agreed, but that's pretty broad. Are we talking:

-Learning materials? ie- textbooks -Learning software? ie- someone just kill blackboard already


Our county got smartboards in every school, and, the thing is, about a third of the teachers can actually use them effectively.

And they cost 6000 dollars to lease. And our county is short on money anyways, so all in all people aren't really too happy about them...

But at least it's a step towards progress.


Smart boards seem like many lazy school boards' way of saying, "Here, now we can say we're up to speed in terms of technology." My high school did the same thing, and they were never used, but always brought up in school presentations.

Investing that money into getting an excellent technology administrator or computer science teacher would have made much more of a difference.


I think he means Blackboard, Inc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackboard_Inc.

They have probably the worst UX I've seen in a web-app; their discussion board software I've had to use for a few classes- and it's abysmally pathetic. phpBB beats it by light-years. But apparently they have a monopoly thanks to some dubious patents.


No, I think he's referring to digital whiteboards that capture what is written on them.

They've been around for a while (I remember seeing them at Tech/Edu conferences in the web 1.0 days).


Jason's referring to the web software.

Pie is referring to the digital boards on walls.

I think "he" may have been referring to two different people


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then, unless jasonlbaptiste would like to weigh in and clarify? :-)


I meant these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promethean_Ltd


At MIT we still use chalkboards. They seem to work pretty well, even with new curriculum.


I've seen the MIT OCW courses, and yeah, professors seem to be pretty efficient with them.


It's not really a step towards progress, it's administrators trying to make it look like they're making progress without actually having to do anything other than spend money.

My aunt teaches at a school where they accidentally threw away all the power cables for the smart boards before they were even used.


Can't you make a smartboard with a laptop, projector and wiimote ... http://johnnylee.net/projects/wii/

Then you might want specific software but I'm sure it's available - tablet-PC software should probably do it.


I second education. Not just the software for teaching, but the software that the teachers use to manage schedules and grades. And the software that the school uses to manage student information. And the software that the school library uses... something that doesn't need to be rebooted every Saturday. I won't even mention the ugly, slow software that the school nurse uses. It's all slow and insecure, the UIs are never intuitive. This is why educators have trouble adopting new software: their days are broken up into finite slices of time. They have only a few short minutes to get ready for the next class, and an even shorter number of minutes to capture the attention of the students... there's just no time to be struggling with fussy, unfriendly software. This is equally true for the smartboards -- half the time they don't play nice with whatever is being plugged into them, and you have to believe that the students lose respect for a teacher they see cursing at a machine.


Absolutely but in education, like other industries, any technological innovation cannot succeed on its own.

Immediately comes to mind is political change (political in the sense of the interaction between a governing body and the people/users). Usually this involves a nontransparent decision process by a centralized power. This thread was particularly enlightening: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=803287

Also in education, one cannot forget the social element. Any game changing innovation today will likely embody some web2.0 ideals.

Not only does it contribute to the spread of innovation. I hate to use the word viral but in today's world it likely will have to spread virally through the internet. Reminds me the adoption of the printing press, arguably the greatest educational innovation, was really helped by pornographic material.

What really interests me in the web2.0 and education space is crowd sourcing. Not only Wikipedia but Wikibooks.

Edit: Expanded on web2.0


Education is starting to being disrupted by various companies: straighterline($99month college courses) , Guaranteach(personalized online learning for k12) , and quite few others. but it's a huge industry so there is place for many companies. but i'm not sure the big barrier here is good technology, probably making sales , and building contents are the barriers here.


Yeah, I would say especially secondary education. It seems like that's an industry in need of a serious overhaul.


they just need to stop teaching useless shit.

Take math for example, why are we teaching kids how to do calculus using a piece of paper, when in the real world they'll be using an Excel spreadsheet?

Math, Chemistry, Physics, Finance, pretty much any course that requires calculations wastes 90% of the course, teaching the kids how to do the calculations by hand, in most cases without even a calculator.

Excel is being widely used in the real world, yet you never see it taught in the classroom. Why? Excel is what the kids will be using in their jobs, shouldn't you be teaching them the skills they'll actually need? Instead of teaching them outdated concepts? Why don't you teach them how to do calculus using an abacus?


An abacus is a better idea than you think. Most people struggle with mathematics because it's not presented in a way that people who are not mathematicians will understand. Read the biography for any $FAMOUS_SCIENTIST and you shouldn't be surprised to find "read Euclid's elements at age [5-12]"


Knowing intimately the underlying principles of a field is important to creating sophisticated manipulations of existing theorems and ideas. Yes, we could teach them how to change what we know sooner, but they wouldn't understand exactly what they're doing.

Also, the mental processes engaged by writing by hand are different than those used when computing. I think there's room for both when teaching people things.


That's a horrible idea, and it sounds a lot more like training than education. 90% of Math, Chemistry and Physics are calculations? You're doing it wrong anyway.

The material content of the calculus class is nigh useless, the goal is to get to get people to be able to think and solve problems.


Energy. All kind of. More efficient using of existing sources and new sources. Think of it this way: How much worth ALL IT industry- all bright stars- Google, apple, MS, ibm? Something around $1T, right? Now Petrochina alone(!) is around 800B and its just about producing and selling gas in China!

So if you would be able to make technological innovation that would make my car engine say 10% more effective or produce just few %% that my home consumes - that will be HUGE!!!


Government. It has a high barrier to entry (win an election/revolution) and a high consumer switching cost (move far away, get a new job, learn a new language). If the governing industry were more competitive, I think its quality of service would be better.

The Peter Thiel-funded Seasteading Institute is trying to decrease the start-up cost and the consumer switching cost. Paul Romer has another approach with the Charter City proposal he's advocating.


All of them.

Under that light, the world is full of opportunities.


Ahhhhh, that's true, but I guess I was thinking less philosophically.


The Home.

It should be "standard" to have a single web interface for control over everything in my house.

1) Real-Time monitoring of water, electric and gas consumption.

2) Entertainment. I should be able to login to a website and click "TV's". Then I can see if they are on, what channel is being watched, what is scheduled to be recorded.

3) Security. Doors and Windows. Automation of opening, closing and locking. Plus video surveillance.

4) Upkeep. Sprinkler control. Heat control and lights. Start the dishwasher, start the coffee pot.

Sure, this can all be done with an excessive amount of work, lots of high tech and expensive gadgetry, and custom software setups, but that doesn't mean it HAS to be that way. I think the Home needs an overhaul.


I used to hear a lot more about "smart" appliances than I do now. I know there have been some companies that have worked on developing outlet adapters that allow you to control some basic functionality over a network, but the smart appliance craze seems to have died down as of late.


could you give any examples with names of companies that are doing the outlet adapters that you mention? I'd like to view them further.


Healthcare, construction, K12 education are three tidepools that a lot of IT innovation has left behind over the last 30 years. None of them need invention, they need to import and adapt working innovations from other fields.


Electricity, the power grid... Right now I'm pretty sure power companies can't tell you if the power is on at your house or not...The system is pretty old.


The technology is there. If you live in the US then most substations have metering, various indications (transformer monitoring, breaker positions, etc.), and breaker/circuit switcher/motor operated device controls. If there is a fault on your feeder then the utility should know immediately. Chances are if you are served by a larger utility then you will also get an automated time of day meter in the next couple of years. Is the adoption of technology slow compared other industries? Sure, safety and reliability rule.


Automobile - currently we are under the model slow and steady wins the race and kills the environment. Traffic sucks, gas sucks, texting kills people.


Environmental improvement (not necessarily environmentally-friendly, just human environment)

ie http://www.project10tothe100.com/ideas.html "Create real-world issue reporting system"

Google's Project 10 to the 100 has a lot of good ideas related to technological innovation.


It seems to me the largest industries -- the ones bound by regulation or the way it's always been done are the ones most ripe for change.

News, real estate, health care, automotive and agriculture come to mind. We're seeing some of these change because of technology. Hopefully, the ones that survive will be stronger for it.


The third world is craving for low cost technologies ,and there's a huge market potential there. only in the last few years companies have started to become interested ,so there might empty places for startups.


Healthcare, plan and simple.


more specifically: clinical trials. This is where most money spent on drug development goes. The sooner big pharma figures out if a drug works or not the better. Its still a very paper based industry, which I think is an FDA requirement. So I believe lots can be innovated here


reminds me of an article my friend wrote: http://kcomposite.blogspot.com/2009/06/uniquely-american.htm...

(short answer = taxes and banking)


Digital Advertising


[deleted]


In theory I agree that you are right, but in the application of computer science, we are at a much better place today than we were 20 years ago.


Agriculture.




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