> The most frustrating part of Bazel is how shoddy the workmanship is.
Without commenting on the above statement:
> For example, Bazel throws away your analysis cache when you change flags that have nothing to do with what's being built or how, like flags that change what tests are run.
I don't think this is a good example. Bazel's analysis cache clearing is to preserve correctness in the context of a legitimately algorithmically difficult problem. The fact Bazel has this limitation is a testament toward its correctness strengths. I'm not aware of systems that have solved that algorithmic problem but curious if anyone knows any.
Also Bazel avoids that problem for most "flags that change which tests are run", since that subset of the problem is more solvable. --test_env was a notable exception, which was fixed (https://github.com/fmeum/bazel/commit/eb494194c1c466f7fd7355...) but not sure if it's in the latest Bazel release yet? But generally changing --test* has much smaller performance impact.
I live in NYC and disagree with your assessment. Last I checked I'm a real person as are most people I know. Don't cast stones like that. It's unfair to other peoples' opinions and dilutes your points.
It's kind of a running joke here in NYC how we'll watch some movie depicting the city as a dystopian wasteland, then we walk outside into tree-lined streets, coffee shops, overflowing sidewalk cafes, and people generally living and enjoying their lives.
That image is incredibly outdated and has become an increasingly tired cliche.
This applies equally to the outer boroughs. Poorer neighborhoods (in any borough) are scrappier, of course, than the rich areas. But they're just as full of life and vibrancy.
I really take your point on the media projection. It's relentless. And it really keeps an outdated image alive, especially in the minds of people who don't live here and can't directly contrast with their own eyes.
> That image is incredibly outdated and has become an increasingly tired cliche.
I agree, but I'm not that old and that's the image of New York City I grew up with because it was then true.
It takes more than a generation to overcome that kind of impression. I'm pretty confident that if you asked New Yorkers my parents' age what the South is like you'd get a lot of answers that were unpleasantly accurate in 1965. This is particularly true when a lot of political polarization is based on region and urbanization.
Excellent point. I think you really get to the heart of the issue.
Different kinds of tests offer different levels of confidence at different levels of time and investment.
A fully integrated shop should think this through carefully and design their own comprehensive end-to-end process. Which feedback is most helpful at which point of the idea -> deployed product pipeline? What value does it offer to the larger process? Feed in org-specific variables like release timelines, team structure, customer expectations, money, compute resources. Use appropriate tools for each piece and remember the largest goals to keep the company reliably delivering whatever makes that company valuable.
As a neutral reader I find the parent’s thoughts on their own expertise and appreciation that acclaimed artists aren’t infallible more persuasive than you appeal to authority.
We all know he’s acclaimed. That doesn’t invalidate any of the points you’re trying to retort, and your disrespect for people with different viewpoints is an uninteresting contribution to this discussion.
And my argument was more than that he's acclaimed. You seem to have entirely missed the point, and I don't know how I could have been more clear.
Would you respect the skills of a coder who disrespects Richard Stallman, saying he doesn't know enough about open source software? Or an economist who thinks Marx didn't understand capitalism, citing their own work in a bank as proof?
One person made appeals to authority (themselves) while being disrespectful in this thread, and it wasn't me.
It's not an appeal to authority to say that Kubrick made the most beautifully framed movies, by a long shot, of any director ever. It's about as close to objective truth with such a subjective question as possible. Ask ChatGPT to tell you who made the most beautifully composed movies! I did - it told me Kubrick.
To say that Kubrick tried too hard, and could have got the same result with less effort, is bananas. It's clearly untrue on its face, because no one else ever has gotten the same result with less effort. It demonstrates a damning lack of understanding & appreciation for the art form. Which, by the way, is actually pretty different to photography - adding time changes the game.
You can say Steve Jobs could have been nicer to his employees - and you'd be right. But you can't seriously claim that you'd have gotten the same results with less effort, citing your experience as general manager of a tech store. Would you hire such a guy as your PM?
Of course they don't. Multiple major crossings from Brooklyn, Queens, and the Bronx have no tolls into our out of Manhattan. Am I misreading you? Are you only talking about commuters from New Jersey?
The Brooklyn Bridge, Queensboro, Manhattan, GW (heading to NJ only), and Williamsburg bridges are the only bridges that do not currently have tolls. All cross the East River. With this plan, you will have to enter the congestion area to use all of those but the GW -- but that's already tolled heading into Manhattan. They even defined the "zone" to be sure to catch the Queensboro onramps. It's intentional.
As for NJ (which is every New Yorker's favorite scapegoat when imagining car commuters): every crossing of the Hudson south of Albany has a toll.
I guess you can count the tiny bridges over the Harlem river if you really want to be pedantic about it, but this is essentially a new tax on NYC residents, whether you own a car or not. Literally every truck entering Manhattan by a major artery will be tolled in one form or another -- in many cases, twice.
> Census data show that more city residents than suburbanites drive to work in Manhattan every day, according to Mr. Schaller. He estimated that 263,000 people in 19 counties in and around New York City drive regularly to jobs in Manhattan below 60th Street. Of those, 53 percent, or 141,000, live in the five boroughs, Mr. Schaller said. The greatest numbers are from Queens, with 51,300, and Brooklyn, with 33,400. About 23,900 auto commuters live in Manhattan, while 17,400 are from the Bronx and 15,200 from Staten Island. The suburban area with the most auto commuters to Manhattan is Nassau County, with 22,091 people driving to work in the borough, followed by Bergen County, with 19,975.
So 53% from NYC, 10% from Manhattan, 47% from outside the city. Only counting commuting as you note.
Without commenting on the above statement:
> For example, Bazel throws away your analysis cache when you change flags that have nothing to do with what's being built or how, like flags that change what tests are run.
I don't think this is a good example. Bazel's analysis cache clearing is to preserve correctness in the context of a legitimately algorithmically difficult problem. The fact Bazel has this limitation is a testament toward its correctness strengths. I'm not aware of systems that have solved that algorithmic problem but curious if anyone knows any.
Also Bazel avoids that problem for most "flags that change which tests are run", since that subset of the problem is more solvable. --test_env was a notable exception, which was fixed (https://github.com/fmeum/bazel/commit/eb494194c1c466f7fd7355...) but not sure if it's in the latest Bazel release yet? But generally changing --test* has much smaller performance impact.