Hate to tell you this, but it's cults all the way down. Plato understood this, and his disdain for caves and wall-shadows, is really a disdain for cults. The thing is, over the last 2300 years, we have gotten really good at making our caves super cozy -- much cozier than the "real world" could ever be. Our wall-shadows have become theme parks, broadway theaters, VR headsets, youtube videos, books, entire cities even. In Plato's day, it made sense to question the cave, to be suspicious of it. But today, the cave is not just at parity with reality, it is superior to it (similar to how a video game is a precisely engineered experience, one that never has too little signal and never has too much noise, the perfect balance to keep you interested and engaged).
I'm no mind reader, and certainly no anthropologist, but I suspect that what separates humans from other (non extinct) animals, is that we compulsively seek caves that we can decorate with moving shadows and static symbols. We even found a series of prime numbers (sequences of dots, ". ... ..... .......") in a cave from the _ice age_. Mathematics before writing. We seek to project what we see with our mind's eye into the world itself, thereby making it communicable, shareable. Ever tell someone you had a dream, and they believed you? You just planted the seed for a cult, a shared cave. Even though you cannot photograph the dream, or offer any evidence that you can dream at all.
The industrial and scientific revolutions have distanced our consciousness from this idea, even as they enabled ever more perfect caves to manifest. Our vocabulary has become corrupted and unclear. We started using words like "reality", and "literally", and "truth", when we mean the exact opposite.
The conspiracy theorists and cultists, are just people who wandered into a new cave, with a different kind of fire, and differently curved walls, and they want to tell people from their old cave that they have found a way out of the cave into reality -- they do not yet realize (or do not want to accept), that they live in a network of caves, a network of different things in the same category.
During the early 2020s, we did a lot of talking about the disappearance of "consensus reality". This is scientific terminology mapped over the idea of caves and cults. You can tell, because the phrase is an oxymoron. It is not reality, if it requires consensus. It is fantasy, it is fiction, it is a dream. The cave has indeed become so widespread that we even _call_ it reality.
If you speak language, and read words, you are participating in a cult (we even call caves that had a kind of altar in the center a cult -- in Eurasia, there was a cave-cult called _the cult of the bear_, which had a bear skull placed in its center during the last ice age, and I would not be surprised if people spoke to it, with the help of hallucinogens). The only question is whether the cult is nourishing you or cannibalizing you.
To the person you are responding to (user ocd): your cave (ladybird, your hypothetical tv-series), no longer nourishes you like it once did. Maybe find a new cave, build a fire in it. Unlike a television series, you can fork a code base. You make it into the perfect cave, just for you. And if another person likes this cave, chooses to sit by the fire with you, well, now you have a cult.
The AI bros believe in and promote superficial woowoo. They are cult leaders and con men, not an authority on anything else. I wouldn't take advice from them on anything.
I don’t know about popes, but many prominent mathematicians, philosophers and early scientists were priests or monks: Mendel, Copernicus, Bayes, Ockham, Bolzano... It was pretty much the only way to get the kind of education, intellectual culture, time and focus required for hundreds of years (at least in Europe), until the upper-middle class widened around the enlightenment and industrial revolution.
The friction between the church and science is a relatively new phenomenon, at least at the current scale. There are always exceptions like Galileo, but it took science a long time to start answering (and contradicting) some of the key questions about our world and where we come from that religion addresses.
Well, considering that Galileo basically called Pope a fool, and the punishment he received was home arrest, this affair is not really the best evidence of Church prejudice, backwardness and cruelty.
And if we agree with Feyerabend, Galileo of today would probably has as much difficulty as the original one, for the initial evidence he provided wasn't strong enough to discard knowledge of that time.
> The friction between the church and science is a relatively new phenomenon, at least at the current scale
Current scale? What current friction do you have in mind. I honestly cannot think of anything with the Catholic church. Lots of friction with evangelical Biblical literalists, of course, but the Catholic Church is not literalist.
> There are always exceptions like Galileo
The Galileo case is more about personalities and politics. it is a very good example of why religious authority should be in the same hands as secular power, but it is not really about his beliefs - no one else (including Copernicus) faced opposition for the same ideas.
Just to correct my wording. I mean "persecution" not "opposition". there was plenty of opposition and people were arguing for multiple alternatives to the Ptolemaic model at the time.
Comapring the assassination of a president by a pro-slaver to a scholarly and political dispute that ended up with house arrest in a villa, where he wrote and published his most important work, is a bit wild. The Church has done much, much worse things than the dispute with Galileo.
Is it? I understood it to teach "behaviour" orthogonal to slavery, meaning you treat your fellow the same regardless if the heathen see him as a slave or as the emperor.
While the GP was making a complete non-sequitur, they were right about this. The Old Testament / the Hebrew Bible in particular sets down clear rules for how specifically slavery should be practiced, so that part is undeniable. It's also undeniable that slavery was a common practice both in Palestine and in the Roman Empire more broadly both long before and long after Jesus' lifetime, among Jewish people as well as Christians. To what extent the New Testament actually overrides the laws of the Old Testament is very contradictory, even in the text itself, but it certainly doesn't say anywhere to any extent that you must not own slaves (well, except the part where Jesus tells a follower to give up all worldly possessions, sell all of their holdings and donate them to charity, which would clearly include any slaves as well - but no one follows this part of the teachings anyway).
While I agree that the various versions of the Bible people are using have many immoral teachings, including slavery, what does that have to do with whether Galileo's trial is a damning example of anti-science work in the Catholic Church?
the catholic church has traditionally been pro-science, the contrast with science is a modern development. There's a ton of Catholic clergy who were scientists[0], many of those well known (Mersenne, Mendel, Copernicus, Venturi etc).
Even the epitome of the science-church conflict, the Galileo story, started from a scientific disagreement before the religious one[1].
Every honest description of Catholic Church, as any institution of this size and history, needs to be very nuanced. One of such nuances is a fact that it was one of the main, and sometimes strictly main, supporters and drivers of education and scientific progress. Other such nuance is that it very often punished and persecuted attempts to bring education and scientific progress.
Both views of the Church are true. That's what nuance is.
More advancements... No being opposed to actual enlightenment, because it doesn't sit well with the institution of power...
I am talking about a real man of science here of course, not some egoistic, smart person that needs to be constantly prove they are the smartest or else their frail ego will collapse... Which there are plenty of in academia and science.
Exactly. We tend to forget that the crusades were an efficient way of assigning land (scarce) to the cadet branches of ruling families (abundant), or die trying.
They often were. A lot of history has been retold more in a way to fit contemporary narrative than to maintain historical accuracy. For instance Galileo. The typical tale is something like Galileo dared claim the Earth is not the center of the universe, the Church freaked out at the violation of dogma, shunned him, and he was lucky to escape with his life. In reality the Pope was one of Galileo's biggest supporters and patrons. But they disagreed on heliocentrism vs geocentricism.
The Pope encouraged Galileo to write a book about the issue and cover both sides in neutrality. Galileo did write a book, but was rather on the Asperger's side of social behavior, and decided to frame the geocentric position (which aligned with the Pope) as idiotic, defended by an idiot - named Simplicio no less, and presented weak and easily dismantled arguments. The Pope took it as a personal insult, which it was, and the rest is history.
And notably Galileo's theory was, in general, weak. Amongst many other issues he continued to assume perfectly circular orbits which threw everything else off and required endless epicycles and the like. So his theory was still very much in the domain of philosophy rather than observable/provable science or even a clear improvement, so he was just generally acting like an antagonistic ass to a person who had supported him endlessly. And as it turns out even the Pope is quite human.
If you step outside and watch the stars, and map them, you'd also come to the conclusion of a geocentric universe yourself. The nature of the sky makes it appear that everything is regularly revolving around us. And incidentally you can even create astronomical predictions based upon this assumption that are highly accurate. You end up needing to assume epicycle upon epicycle, but Galileo's theory was no better there since the same is true when you assume circular orbits.
So what made Galileo decide otherwise was not any particular flaw with geocentricism, but rather he thought that he'd discovered that the tides of the ocean were caused by the Sun. That is incorrect and also led to false predictions (like places only having one high tide), so the basis for his theory was incorrect, as were many assumptions made around it. But it was still interesting and worth debating. Had he treated 'the other side' with dignity and respect, it's entirely possible that we would have adopted a heliocentric view far faster than we ultimately did.
The thing that made him question geocentrism was that Venus quite visibly orbits the Sun.
It has always been known that the tides are caused by the Moon. The hard part is to predict the tides in detail, as they depend on the geography as well. Some of the first computers were invented to predict the tides.
Galileo not only actively rejected lunar explanations for the tides, but felt that they were driven purely by the kinetic motion of the Earth - rotation about its own axis + revolution around the Sun. He dismissed the concept of invisible action at a distance -- Newton would be born in the same year that Galileo would die. You can read more about Galileo and his views on the tides here. [1] He felt that this was his most compelling argument for heliocentricism.
There were definitely two sides at the time in people's minds. He could have presented the geocentric position as being based on theories that were justified only by inductive reasoning, and contrasted that with his own observations and why they provide a more accurate view of the universe.
Neutral writing only means that it is not overtly prejudiced, and the weight of the evidence speaks for itself. That's definitely not what Galileo wrote. He was eventually widely considered to be right, but that didn't help him any.
I think incomplete would be a better description; it was roughly right for our solar system and far more right than thinking everything revolved around the earth.
I think that is a reasonable take with regard to Copernicus - and however you look at it he made a huge advance on any previous model.
Geocentric models may look silly with the benefit of hindsight, but Galileo’s claim that the Copernican model was proven was entirely unwarranted at the time. The evidence did not exist until much later.
It is not about better or worse, it is about correcting myths created later on that were intended to paint the Church as epitome of backwardness.
Galileo's affair wasn't about noble scientist going against stupid masses and oppressive institution designed to keep people in dark, while providing strong evidence for revolutionary theory, and being punished for his great genius.
Agreed. I'd also say that I think our habit of canonizing whoever happens to be perceived as the 'good guy' in history, and demonizing the 'bad guy' tends to make history much more difficult to learn from, because the people involved go from being real humans to actors in a very artificial Hollywood style story of good vs evil.
The real story here is one that has played out endlessly in history in various contexts. And is a great example of why The Golden Rule is something valuable to abide, even if you're completely self centered. It also emphasizes that all people, even the Pope, are human - and subject to the same insecurities, pettiness, and other weaknesses as every other human. And more. It's a tale of humanity that has and will continue to repeat indefinitely.
But when you turn it into a story of good vs evil, you lose all of this and instead get a pointless attack on one institution, which is largely incidental to what happened. For instance you can see the Galileo story clearly in the tale of Billy Mitchell [1] who went from suggesting that air forces would dominate the future of warfare (back in 1919!) to getting court martialed and 'retired' for his way of trying to argue for such. His views would go on to be shown to be 100% correct in 1937, the first time a plane downed a capital naval ship. However, he died in 1936.
Galileo is a noble scientist going against a Pope who had his fee-fees hurt, which then banned the truth. It doesn't make the Church any less backward.
Because the Church didn't even have a good theological reason for siding against Galileo. It was a fit of pique.
But people have so completely internalized the idea that truth must bow to power that they think the fact that the Church condemned Galileo's ideas because he was rude somehow exonerates it as an institution.
The patron and professor funds a paper, and it contains claims of proofs that don't exist and ad hominems against the patron. The patron then sabotages the author. Sure, not very professional by the patron, but still understandable.
Even better is, 'I aim at the Stars! (but sometimes I hit London)'.
"I Aim at the Stars" was the name of a real biographical movie made about him in the 60s. It feels like that exact title had to have been chosen, at least partly, tongue in cheek.
There is no face. The depictions of God the Father are relatively new (in the history of the church; it's still Renaissance). Some people used to have problem with them (Jesus can be depicted, as he was a man, but can be Father?) but then it calmed down.
If people think it's literally a face in the sky, they are probably mentally challenged.
Yeah, but you literally and officially hate LGBTQ+ people, treat women as property, condone slavery, and literally hallucinate that crackers and wine are flesh and blood in spite of what your eyes, nose, taste buds, and all scientific instruments and measurements tell you.
Edit: yet you can't counter the objective fact that the Catholic Church is a hateful abusive power hungry cult full of dogmatically hallucinating lunatics, homophobes, and misogynists. Go eat your Jesus flesh and drink your Jesus blood, you cannibalistic vampire whack job.
You know as well as I do that the bible and church writings are chock full of evidence proving my point, so you can google it yourself.
And you also know that your church has such a long sordid history of raping children and protecting rapist priests than Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor's molestations and Trump's protection of pedophiles make them look like saints in comparison, and you can google that yourself too.
You don't deserve the favor of me giving you proof of something you already know to be true, because you're not arguing in good faith, you know very well you're wrong and I'm right and that all the evidence is on my side and easily found and documented, and I know very well you will reject all fact based evidence because of your bad faith.
My brother, literally not one of your claims is true. I'm not sure where you have gotten the idea that such lies are the truth, but you really should reconsider your position. You seem to be very angry at the church (based on you posting this sort of thing all up and down the thread), but believing outright false ideas about the church isn't going to fix anything.
> literally hallucinate that crackers and wine are flesh and blood in spite of what your eyes, nose, taste buds, and all scientific instruments and measurements tell you.
I will surprise you but I agree with one of your points- the abuse crisis is horrible and it should be stopped. Its a deep and recurring stain on the church - and I hope the new generation of the clergy will finally chase it out.
The Catholic Church was funding a lot of research for a long time. E.g the Elon Musk of his time, Galileo, was famously sponsored by it and when asked to contrast his theories against the established view, sperged out so hard against the people tasked with reviewing his publications, they tossed him under the carriage.
You mean during the Napoleonic wars? Science was already fully embraced by then. Or do you think the Austrians and the French were casting spells against each other instead of firing cannon?
reply